Response to Narie

This is in response to your comments about my 'Islamic London' post.

I sometimes think that we were incredibly lucky in the people who founded this country. We idealize them as brave and forthright, and they were that, but they were also people with the sort of problems, bouts of short-sightedness, and pet peeves that we have now -- yet somehow they came up with this compact that has survived two centuries. The mortar is getting chipped away every day by George Bush and his crew of merry men, and has been whenever powerful politicians have found the Constitution too restrictive, yet the structure still stands. Thats pretty impressive. I don't have great insights into where that strength comes from but I suspect that it's a mixture of the personal values of the people who drafted it and those problems that they had to address in the document. They wanted it to reflect their ideals and principles; they had to have it reflect their political problems. I think that they created a political document that incorporated religious values without incorporating the religion itself. Not to say that those values only exist in religion, but they do exist there. The idea of fairness, of justice, of equality are part of all religions. Christianity has it. Islam has it. I suspect all do.

So, unfortunately, is the track record of violence, of 'kill them all, let (insert supreme deity name here) sort them out'. I used to think that Christianity was more tolerant and refined (though I wouldn't have chosen those words) than the others , but after seeing Falwell and his crew, I realized that Christian fanatics can be as bad in their own way as the Taliban. I say 'in their own way' because they haven't taken over a political entity and started putting a theocratic structure in place, but if they did, would anyone be all that surprised? So when I see people slamming Islam, I think 'its not just them'. I admit, sometimes that's hard for me to believe at a visceral level, because, after all, what can I think about a religion when the fanatics of that religion have brought so much hate and death to the world? But I think that I've got that backward. I think that these fanatics would be fanatics if they were Muslim, Catholic, or Zen Buddhist -- they've just gravitated to a structure, and gone wild with it. (As an analogy: the people who stole my yard sign in the last election were fanatics for the other side's political party. That doesn't mean that political parties are wrong, or that that side's party is inherently fanatical. It simply means that they're got fanatics. So does my side. Neither is defensible. )

I think that if you took any religion, and lopped off the outlying standard deviations so as to eliminate the fanatics, you’d find the core values quite similar. And I think that you can subscribe to those core values without being religious at all. Religion provides a framework, but its not the only valid structure.

Is there something about Islam that makes fanaticism more likely with Islam than with other religions? Put a different way, why are the fanatics who blow things up all from that religion? Well, I don't think its Islam, per se. I haven't done a lot of reading, but the impression I get is that Islam does NOT condone or encourage the actions that are being done in its name. My guess is that the parts of the world where Islam holds sway (and its a LOT of the world) have had a lot of problems in the last hundred years, if not more, and those problems are whats driving this activity. Part of that is that they're so damn poor in so many places. They see the wealthy parts of the world, things they didn't see before mass communications became so easy, and they think 'Why not us?' They're ripe for believing that someone is keeping them down. Part of that is that the Arab culture was magnificent for so long. It still is impressive, but it's ceased being the dominant force, and they want it back. And those two concepts overlap – see, for example, the article in Discover recently wherein an Arab scholar, defending science in an Islamic country, says that its of course the fault of the west that his country is not dominant. But whereas most (I hope) are trying to regain that dominance through what we'd consider normal effort, others are trying to get up by bringing others down. I can't build a World Trade Towers? Fine, I can destroy yours. And those are the people who are getting the attention. Its not the religion, its the people. Its been a long time since Christianity has done that kind of thing, laying waste to what we dislike, so by comparison we look peaceful. Yet Falwell and others like him have shown that given the opportunity, they can be just as restrictive, just as coercive -- and potentially, just as destructive. Its been decades since Barry Goldwater said "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"; at the time (1964), that level of intensity certainly sounded right to a lot of people for what they believed in. I suspect that to many, today, it does for what they believe in now.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I don’t trust fanatics, but I understand why, to many people, they don’t sound like ‘fanatics’, they sound like ‘true believers’ – and that sounds pretty good to them.

Incidentally, relative to your followup comment: I don't know any Muslims -- I have been in contact with just one (the woman who writes the Muslim Apple blog) routinely, and with one or two others on rare occasions. All but one of them struck me as normal people trying to live a decent life. (One came across as intentionally provocative and challenging, which, I was told, is a common trait as a way of seeing if your opponent will stick to what they're saying. Scared the hell out of me. ) I don't think they're out to get me, or enslave me -- yet there's always that lingering 'well, sure, but they probably know someone who does'. Do I really think that? In the light of day, no. At night, when I'm tired, or feeling scared -- well, maybe. And I would bet that if I were Muslim, in this country, I'd feel much the same way about Christians. At night, when they're tired, or scared, they must wonder if some morning they're going to wake up and find that the Christian Militia is out rounding them up. Thats not the kind of society decent people want -- but the fanatics? I would bet on it.

I hope this rambling screed made some kind of sense. I should mention that I'll violently assault the physical and logical integrity of anyone who thinks it didn't.

Yes, that's a joke.