Friday, June 21, 2013

Spies

I've been thinking about this whole NSA thing.  Not thinking deeply -- I'm not sure I've ever done that, about anything -- but frequently.

I think that that Ben Franklin quote about those who give up a little liberty ... is pious and mistaken.  I'm willing to bet he wouldn't have said it as it's quoted, but even if he did, I think it doesn't matter.  I think we need defense against intangible enemies, and if giving up a little liberty gives that defense, I'm for it.  On the other hand, when I see the NSA say that they stopped fifty terrorist plots, I think Really? Terrorist the way that we think of them, all organized and funded, or two guys grousing over a beer in Pakistan because they hate having the Americans there and wish they could do something about it?  I don't doubt that they've stopped some number -- and of course, how many would it take for me to say well, okay, you've made your point.  They stopped one terrorist from blowing up one car in a Walmart parking lot in Minnesota?  Ten airplanes from flying into ten more buildings?

The idea of spying on foreigners doesn't bother me until I think about the idea that a) some of those foreigners are my friends, and b) their spy agencies regard ME as a foreigner, so guess what.  I think that the spying is necessary.  It's trusting that they are being held to high ethical standards that flummoxes me.  Obama says yes, of course they are, but I doubt he actually can be sure that they aren't lying to him. We've seen enough examples of major corporations suffering grievous losses because a trader or clerk did something stupid or malicious or both.  How does he say with confidence that some cryptographer isn't accumulating his own stash of interesting or salacious information, just as the TSA found some of their people were doing (after swearing that no, of course not, it's not even technically possible). 

I dislike not believing my government, and Obama, but I don't.  I think they are right about the threat.  I think they are right about this being an effective method of addressing the threat.  I don't believe that it's the only way, or the best way, or the most ethical way.

But perhaps I've just seen too much West Wing.

6 comments:

Tabor said...

This has never been clean...even back in Ben Franklin's day. I am sure the brother-in-law of the neighbors wife was targeted as an atheist or the wife a witch to be watched. We cannot count on honesty and fairness and ethical employees. Someone has to watch the watchman.

Cerulean Bill said...

Policemen, even honest ones, tend to dislike civilian review boards, but it would have to be external. Even if it did get populated with ex-intelligence types.

I bet this whole thing dies down in 2 or 3 months, unfortunately.

Unknown said...

All this is clearly laid out in "The Prince". Too much trouble to read it? Well... perhaps Chapter ten is appropriate when describing "Fortress America".

http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince20.htm

Sun Tsu had two chapters out of seven devoted to espionage of various types. The chapter on "energy" and the chapter on "secret agents".

One must ask oneself if Mr. Obama has the five "strengths of character" required to win the war which is being waged against the West.
http://www.stanford.edu/class/polisci211z/1.1/Sun%20Tzu.pdf

pages 114 and 115.

Chapter 13 of the same book deals with the uses of espionage.


Clauswitz claimed that "War is politics carried on by other means". Politics is a shadow world of compromise and favors...the currency is information.

How else can you get this information?

Now you question whether there actually IS a war against the West. A VERY good question. I suppose we could answer it easily enough....just let the "bad guys" win a few. Is that the answer? Perhaps publicize a few of the close calls? That might work. I guess the "Cole" and the Embassy bombings wasn't answer enough? Bill.. what proof do you need?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks

Unknown said...

And remember, I am not pro war at all! I always figured that as long as the politicians are doing their talk talk talk, we won't have to send our sons and daughters "over there". Part of the "talk talk talk" is having "information, information, information".
Ben Franklin was totally correct. We will get neither. But thats good just so long as I can keep my house, go to school, watch TV and visit the internet.

Cerulean Bill said...

As I said, I don't question their conclusions, or even their methods (mostly). I question their ethics. I don't trust that the information they gather will be used properly, all of the time. Paranoid people need rational oversight, and right now, they're not getting it.

As for Ben, I think he said that when the cameras were on. Later, behind a tankard of ale.... perhaps the comments became a little nuanced. He was, after all, a politician.

STAG said...

Do you REALLY fear your government?

Is there REALLY a lack of oversight?

There are checks and balances built in there....